Well, we have it once we understand the Father for ourselves. And since the lies of the church have kept us from seeing God as He is, we see the same dysfunction in the church as we see outside it. But some have caught it, and my hope is that we can spread it internally and externally, bringing the world into fullness of life.
My testimony here is to encourage you Jacob.
- Explore Sofia?
- Every Little Whisper;
- Inseltage: Erzählung (German Edition).
The day after his kind visit to me I felt that my fellowship with God had been totally restored and I was in total anticipation of something that would occur during that day. In the late afternoon I ran into somebody that I had had connection with in a rehab situation, he as a client and me as a voluteer. He got to telling me how he was feeling God calling him back to address his recent lapses into dangerous territory. He expressed, as a rationale for this, that we are in the last days, Jesus is coming back soon, and, he better get his act together.
I explained to him my persuasion that we had been in the last days for years and that in our day Jesus is returning IN his people as scripture alludes to in the references to the restoration of all things and the manifestation of the sons of God. HIs response to me was visibly tangible. It most certainly struck a chord of cardiognosis between the two of us and he seemed to light up as though it were something he intuitively knew but had never had categorically expressed to him before.
In His love, Michael. For our God [is] a consuming fire. Hebrews John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Luke Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. Jeremiah And he laid [it] upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Happy endings for the rich
Isaiah [Is] not my word like as a fire? Jeremiah And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people. Isaiah Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
Jeremiah Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But [his word] was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not [stay]. Jeremiah Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Psalms 1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed. Exodus My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue, Psalm And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Acts And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Luke That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:1 Peter Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. Isaiah But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].
Proverbs For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried. Psalms And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God. Zechariah Second observation: in 2 Thessalonians 1, you actually make a good argument for conditionalism.
Eternal is just a way of modifying the noun destruction — so it can be read as destruction of an eternal, final kind. In other words, the object destroyed will never be re-constructed. Reading it this way does no grammatical damage to the text. Finally, the lake of fire is simply symbolism or imagery from the vision that John was given. It would be a contentious point of discussion that could be difficult to resolve — if it were not for the fact that the interpretation is given to us. The lake of fire is the second death.
No mention of any restorative feature of this term. What are your thoughts on Ezekiel 16? Sodom is pretty much the personification of sin and judgement, and Jude alludes to the eternal fires that burned it, in addition to the passage you mentioned. In terms of the lake of fire, as I mention in the article, it seems strange that we are trying to make a literal interpretation, explanation or no explanation, of such a symbolic book with numerous non-Biblical influences.
Thanks for the extended grace Jacob! Re Ezekiel , I have encountered that passage as an argument in the past — as a rebuttal from universalists. The way I look at it is to look at the New Testament first. In Matt we can see that Jesus told them that the ministry of proclaiming the kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. Paul augments this statement in Romans by telling the Gentiles that in ministering to them, he is hoping to make his fellow Jews jealous — thus hoping to save some of them.
Given this informed way to read the OT passage in view, we can see that, despite the fact that God cared for Israel and entered into a covenant with them — they played the whore. In this whoring with nations such as the Egyptians, the Philistines, the Assyrians and the Chaldeans, God clearly spelled out the fact that He would judge them and deliver Israel into the hands of these nations which would bring wrath upon them in fury and jealousy. They would be stoned and cut to pieces. Their houses would be burned. In verse 42, it says that God would satisfy His fury on them, and His jealousy would turn away from them.
He would be calm and would be angry no more. As we read on, Isaiah comments about Samaria and Sodom. He chooses to use these examples to show how Israel has followed their ways and acted according to their abominations. The point he is making, however, is focused on Israel — and not on the city of Sodom or on Samaria. They are mentioned merely to bring a comparison — and as such, to help illustrate the level of wickedness that they were being charged with.
So when, in verse 53, Isaiah says that he is going to restore the fortunes of Sodom and Samaria as he also mentions that he will restore the fortunes of other nations in Jeremiah — the Moabites for example in Jer , he does not have in mind a universalistic view pointing at a post-resurrection future. The picture he is painting is the salvation of the Gentiles and the restoration of believing Israel — accomplished by the New Covenant. This whole chapter is envisioning the redemptive work of the coming of the Messiah.
It all points toward Jesus and the fulfillment of the covenant. The key verse in this is v. Peter says otherwise — that Sodom was destroyed and any future earthly, actual restoration of the city is far from his mind. He uses a past event that was understood to bring understanding to a future event that needed explanation. And of course Jude collaborates the example given by Peter. So if the word greek word for eternal, does mean an Age… then there will be indeed an age of hell. There will be pain, sorrow and wheeping again and Jesus has to save us again from death.
Hey Marcel, thanks for commenting. Remember that our goal here is less to paint a complete picture and more to demonstrate the holes in the picture people already think is complete. We tend to have a binary outlook on any given concept. So in this context, we think it needs to fit neatly into some finite time period that makes sense to us or forevermore. What is the Age to come?
Is it on Earth, in Heaven, throughout the unbelievably vast Cosmos? We honestly have no clue what God has in store for us. This allows for pretext of thought and misguided thinking to the reader. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. What happens after this period of time if it really is not an infinite amount of time? If its not an infinite amount of time, there will ultimately be an end point regardless of how you want to define it.
We will in fact be with God for an infinite period or a period that ends. Therefore, if time for His children has an end point, God would have to then bring an end to our soul. This is crazy logic I am extrapolating here in this example, but is used to prove a point. It seems silly to conclude that God would really only want us to worship Him for a fixed amount of time, versus an infinite amount of time.
Another point to bring up is what is written in Romans 8: If we are heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, how can we only share in His temporal blessings, but not eternal blessings. Therefore if we are fellow heirs with Christ and Christ is eternal, we will live with Him and worship Him forever with no end.
Hell 6 The Lazarus Parable
However, this opens up the flood gates of inequity. I say all these things in love; wanting truth to prevail and hearts to surrender to the true God, rather than a god we form to make easier to love and follow and adore. This response expresses my thoughts better than I ever could. My initial worry is that you reference only one source for this new definition.
I should have been more clear about this in the article. As I already showed in this article, there are 21 verses that explicitly talk about the wicked being destroyed, there are 21 verses that explicitly talk about all people being saved, and yes, there are verses that suggest torment, although very few explicit ones. We tend to miss the forest through the trees because of our idea of inerrancy. Having read the article and already commented, here is my simplistic analysis: Our purpose in this life is to fall into a relationship with Jesus and in doing so, obey Him in all things.
This also means leading others into a relationship with the Lord. Dear sir. And maybe the Protestant side even more than the RC. I think it might have something to do with the legalism involved. People spend their whole lives behaving a certain way and being miserable as they do it. Describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom ; 2Ti ; Tts ; or undefined because endless as in Rom. The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2Cr , where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit.
Moreover is it used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as e. The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Th , is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive. Hi Humble T.
I appreciate your comment and your willingness to disagree without including personal insults or wild assumptions about the author. It demonstrates something more complex than a homogeneous, never-ending stretch called eternity. I think we can see the evidence of this in the thousands of denominations and streams that believe the Bible to be inerrant while also vehemently disagreeing with each other on its contents.
Ideas, doctrines, interpretations, translations, and even the Biblical canon itself have been debated and disputed since the death of Christ. Paul records his own debate with Peter in his writings — two of the first major church leaders. However, aionios, its contextual important counterpart whose root, too is aion is found more than sixty times in the NT in the places noted above and others. Why, then, would we take the liberty of changing its definition- it seems a bit counterproductive, convenient and frankly, divisive though clearly, not intentional.
In this same token, we have legitimate overwhelming evidence to suggest that aionios in these contexts means eternal or eternity. If you do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, then this conversation cannot continue on the basis of Scripture, but on your own mind and will. Perhaps 2Tim and Prv will be of assistance there. The objective of good science, philosophy and theology is always to get to the heart of the matter, or the best possible explanation. Hell is not convenient, I understand. But the best possible explanation is not to replace it. To talk around it.
Or to exclude it. This conversation reduces to faith. Hell is not punishment, it is just. Consider this- were we all ultimately reconciled to God, what point would there be to live life within the confines of spiritual morality? If you have three ages, then it could mean from the ending of Age 1 to the start of Age 3 so just a single age period. It could also mean all three of those ages — in other words every age, or eternal. Especially given that in order for time to exist God has to first be outside of time — just as when we build a computer the clock of that computer is what we define it to be entirely separate from our own state of being.
If God knowing who you are can only be achieved through repentance and receiving of the Holy Spirit then turning people away would be a death sentence. Because later might never come. I agree that the alternate meanings proposed for aionios and iskolasis are not the way that most scholars and the historical church have interpreted them — and — they seem to be used fairly consistently in the NT regardless of context.
Following The Many Clues. There were more than enough of these fiery underworld stories to go around. The Parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus The word parable comes from the Greek parabole , which means a likeness, illustration, or comparison. In other words, a parable is a short and simple story that uses the familiar to illustrate a spiritual point. One of Jesus' parables, that of the rich man and Lazarus, is found only in the book of Luke.
That He was warning unrepentant sinners that they would be sentenced to extreme torment, engulfed forever in a unquenchable fire. The Greek Words basanos and odunao basanos The word 'torment' in the parable is translated from the Greek basanos that, according to Strong's is a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals like silver and gold.
However the only other time basanos occurs in the New Testament is in Matthew where it could mean physical pain or distress,. The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains Gr. Matthew It is the word Luke used to describe the distress felt by Mary and Joseph when, on their way home from the Passover feast in Jerusalem, they discovered that the young Jesus was missing. When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way?
Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously Gr. He also used odunao to describe the sadness felt by the elders of the Ephesian Church when they realized that they would probably never see Paul again. And they began to weep aloud and embraced Paul, and repeatedly kissed him, grieving Gr. And they were accompanying him to the ship. Acts NASB.
I have absolutely no idea how those that take this parable literally account for the numerous anti-Biblical details it contains. Another man Lazarus is sent to Heaven, with no other reason given other than he was poor, hungry, and covered with sores. Nothing is said about the rich man being a sinner, or the poor man being righteous. It is simply stated that the rich man had received good things in his lifetime, and Lazarus nothing but misfortune in his. If this parable is meant to be literal, then all of us who look forward to the coming of the kingdom, need to get rid of all our possessions and go live under a bridge somewhere.
It would serve us even better if we manage to acquire some horrible disease in the process. This particularly applies to believers in the West who have so much in the way of material goods. The problem being that Jesus did not come to bring about people's reconciliation to Abraham, but to God. Although the "great gulf" is impassable, it is not so wide that people in Paradise cannot hear the entreaties of those in hell.
In fact, they can even look across this chasm and see their loved ones in torment, and hold conversations with them. Someone is going to have to explain to me how, under these circumstances, it will even be possible to get a good night's sleep, much less enjoy the rewards of Heaven.
Let me very blunt - heaven could not possibly be heaven in any sense of the word, if one is able to watch and hear ones loved ones suffer for all eternity. I can almost hear the reader protesting that of course none of the above points are literal. Jesus, as He always did, was using a parable to teach His hearers something. My point exactly. If people do not go to heaven or hell based on their financial status in this world. If people can not converse, or see each other, across the gulf between heaven and hell. Then how exactly are we justified in claiming that the rest of the story is factual?
The fact is that we are using preconceived ideas as a basis to decide which parts of the story are literal, and which are not. Preconceived ideas that, as shown in this article, have absolutely no foundation in the Scriptures. As always, the answer lies in the immediate context. Neither Jesus nor any other of the Biblical authors, were given to stringing together a bunch of thoughts, totally disconnected from one another.
In order to correctly understand what the author was trying to say we have to look not at single verses as is our tendency but the overall message of the section that each verse contributes to. In this case, this particular parable was part of the four others that immediately preceded it - ALL five were part of the overall point that Jesus was making to the Pharisees. Therefore, bearing in mind that there were no chapter and verse divisions in the original manuscripts which were added later for convenience, we have to go back at least as far back as the beginning of chapter 15 to grasp what He was saying.
Saving The Lost Chapter fifteen begins by telling us that tax collectors and sinners came to listen to Jesus which caused the scribes and Pharisees to "murmur" against Him for associating with these undesirables. Jesus then related three parables - that of the lost sheep , the lost coin , and the prodigal son , all designed to emphasize that God's concern was and is for those that are lost, rather than those who need no repentance. The Failure of The Sons of Light Chapter sixteen, begins with another parable, the point of which was that we need to learn a lesson from the unprincipled scoundrel who dishonestly used the resources available to him ingratiate himself with his master's debtors.
Although Jesus did not approve of what the man did and called him unrighteous, He also said the steward was wiser than many "sons of light" inasmuch as he knew what was coming and prepared for it. As Jesus asked ""Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you? Luke That this parable is directed at the Pharisees is obvious from the fact that the very next verse says Jesus then tells them that, although they justified themselves in the eyes of men, God knew their hearts, and it was an abomination to Him.
He said Vs. The end of the law had come and it was futile to keep following it. For an explanation of this rather confusing statement. See Jesus And The Law. Black History Month. Black Lives Matter.
Hell – Part 2: Why The Lake of Fire, Lazarus & Gnashing Teeth Can’t Conjure Up Eternal Torment
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